This is an image of Victoria Jenkins, wearing a royal blue power suit, standing in the street, with a sparkly mobility aid. Credit: Deb Burrows.
Victoria Jenkins co-chairs our Representation and Inclusion Committee and is a garment technologist with 14 years of experience in the fashion industry who became Disabled in her 20s. She is behind the sustainable adaptive fashion brand Unhidden. The idea was born after a chance encounter with a woman with cancer that changed the course of her life. As she watched the woman during her own hospital stay, she realised that there were no adaptive clothes on the market and this is how Unhidden was born.
Now Victoria is listed as one of Vogue’s Top 25 Powerhouse Women, redefining Britain and co-presents and designs on Channel 4’s Unique Boutique. A must-watch where inclusive fashion lovers and designers create bespoke outfits for every-body in a custom-built shop.
Meg Pirie and Victoria about future plans for a not-for-profit arm of Unhidden, training people with disabilities and chronic health conditions how to sew adaptive alterations so they can then work as and when they choose making adaptive alterations for any one who doesn't sew. There are also plans for workshops that will cover how to adapt clothing you already own yourself so there is no barrier to accessing adaptive clothing and re-loving your existing wardrobes.
Finally, Victoria shares her key policy asks to ultimately make fashion more inclusive.
To learn more about Victoria’s amazing work:
Full transcript can be found below. Meg’s questions are in bold and Victoria answers below.
Hi Victoria, it's so great to have you here for this interview. So just going to kick off, so I read a little bit about the reasons behind launching your brand Unhidden, but can you explain a little bit more about what that sort of a-ha moment I suppose was for you and how the brand has gone from strength to strength?
Yeah, of course. So it's, you know, I always have to talk about my career and then also my health, I think, in context. Sure. So I had a nearly life-threatening incident, an undiagnosed ulcer burst in 2012. That led to lots of hospital admissions and other surgeries and sorts. So that's why my ‘aha’ moment did actually happen in hospital. And I was on a ward with this incredible woman who had survived ovarian cancer, but was left with two stomas in her arm and she was there to have a line, a medical line for her chest. And... It wasn't just that she couldn't dress in hospital. She had to take everything off every time the doctors came around. And with so many things going on, it was generally at least six people and invariably male as well. So there was a modesty and dignity side to the light bulb moment as well. But she was more, she knew I was working in fashion and at the time I think I was at All Saints and she just said she couldn't dress how she wanted to at home. Going out to social events, she just always felt like she wasn't herself – she had to wear t-shirts and jogging bottoms so that she could access various parts of her or you know just to stop it from being painful, because you know with someone who's got a lot of things – you know a lot of bloating – I mean we all find clothing painful at times but to just permanently be in that position of clothing being painful was yeah just not good and I thought it's so obvious. I'd had my own birthday and I'd gone out in a jumpsuit and the seam just sat right across where a new scar was. I ended up leaving early because I was in pain. I thought it's, you know, it's been happening to me. You kind of just put up with it until you realise maybe you could have a solution. So I started researching from a hospital bed. I think at the time I was a bit medically burnt out as well, but what I saw online in 2016 was just people that were really trying to fill a need, but I didn't feel like it represented what this woman was looking for. It wasn't very sustainable – it was all very Teflon. It was kind of designed from a point of view of a carer, not from the wearer's perspective. So it's sort of that idea of, maybe that's something I can do, you know, whilst still trying to survive in an industry with lots of health conditions, which wasn't easy. And then the idea just didn't leave basically. So I kept at it. So yeah, that's where it started.
That's amazing. And how do you think the brand has grown? So obviously you launched it from a hospital bed, but now, you know, everyone's heard of it.
How do you think it's grown?
I think it's been a question of the right time. I'm not the first brand, there were other brands before me, some of which are still going, some of which have closed. I think I was just very fortunate and obviously very privileged, you know, when lockdown happened to have the support of people around me. Rather than fighting for salaries and working freelance and changing careers or anything, I thought, right, this is the time I focus because I'd gone freelance in 2017 to pursue it. And then was too busy working for other people to then also work on launching a business. Well, yeah, the idea was 2016. I registered it in 2017, but we've only really been trading since November, 2020. That's when I would say I launched it. And like I said, I think it was right person, right time, perhaps, you know, I think it helps that I've got at this point now, you know, 16 years working in the industry, but you know, not forgetting the three years degree that I also had. So coming from that background and having worked with some amazing brands specifically on garment construction at a mass production level, I think it just helps give me that understanding on what needs to be done, almost without consulting anybody. Obviously I do go out and ask the community before I design anything really, but it did give me that edge in that I kind of knew enough of what to start with. And then, you know, now I look forward to being able to drill down. So it's been, I've kind of gone from a, let's build the awareness, because Unhidden is not just about the actual, you know, being a brand that people buy from. It is about representation as well. And to get, you know, to get it to the price point, to get it in front of the people I need, with no resources, no budget, and certainly no contacts, I had to be very clever in PR, which arguably has worked. I don't have a PR person, I did a very short course, I did a week's course in PR in 2021. Um, and that, and then had a, you know, a top up with that same coach who sadly doesn't do it anymore – otherwise I would be offering her to everybody. Um, and that's kind of, that's, you know, that's how it's helped build awareness and credibility. And that's, those are all the things that you need to then engage with retailers because they have to understand how much it's wanted and needed before they do it. And I think that is, especially, you know, I think a lot of the adaptive design community who, you know, we do all generally chat, we've got a WhatsApp group, we're all, you know, sort of cheerleading each other behind the scenes. I think what we're all painfully aware of is to get to a point where the consumer can afford it means that we've got to be able to partner with brands. I've had to make Unhidden a desirable and credible brand to partner with. Thankfully [...] I've got there. Um, can't say everything about where it's going, but we are speaking to retailers. So it's, I think the momentum is building and [...] – you know, we all have this extra time and empathy and suddenly everyone was in a room. You know, I don't think I'd have been able to do it if the pandemic hadn't happened – I would not have been digitally or in the real world in the room with some of the people that have helped me get to where I am now. Yeah, I think we were suddenly all in the same space that made it a bit easier.
Well, dismantling some of those barriers then, I was reading something on your website that said you're proposing some workshops alongside some other sort of future plans. Can you sort of relay a little bit more about that?
Yeah, thankfully there are more and more conversations in this space now. So I want to be able to offer workshops so people can adapt their existing clothes because you know, we've got to slow down this vehicle of overproducing and everything else, but it's also the physical and the mental toll of, you know, for so many people, like 80% of the community acquire their disability like I did. So some people are leaving hospitals suddenly unable to wear their entire wardrobe, but it might be, you know, their favourite dress or something that they bought for themselves or that somebody else bought for them, that they have a lot of memories attached to. So not being able to wear it again. You know, it just breaks my heart that some people have that as an issue. And then the other, the flip side is we have what we call a disability tax, which is you go and buy something that's close to what you need, and then you pay to adapt or alter it. So I'd like to be able to put the skill set into the community so they can do it themselves if they want to, or they can. somebody they know, they can say, this is how I do it. Here's a video or here's a workshop and get them to do it that way. So just, you know, it's part of that reuse, recycle ethos, just from an adaptive perspective, because there are some really simple things that people can do to make their clothes fit a bit better.
What are the simple things? Like what would it be if you could pick one?
It's adding in fabric for wheelchair users in the right place so that it doesn't dig in and so you're actually shifting the angle of the seated area. It's buttonholes, just using openings in your pockets to feed tubes through so you're not going over waistbands, you're going through pockets. Really, really simple. And then making things elasticated also really helps. And then there's throwing darts in, there's changing, you know, using the right fabrics to start with as well, but there's quite a few little hacks. And we've seen, it's frustrating to see videos go viral where someone is inserted a zip into a sleeve and everyone's like, oh my God, this is amazing. Everyone should do it. I've done that from the beginning. But you know, it's part of that. There are some really, really simple things that just suddenly open up clothes to everyone and potentially incredibly empowering for people as well just to have that simple hack. And we have maternity clothing, which is kind of like the precursor to adaptive – you know you're not gonna wear it for life, but there's no denying that you need clothes that are gonna work around a bump. [...] I mean, things are changing now because we're a lot more relaxed in some areas and some industries, but not being able to dress how you need to for an interview actively stops you from progressing any further than an interview. If you can't wear a suit because it's painful, uncomfortable and doesn't look very good because it doesn't work for you, you're not gonna get hired. I mean, never mind that we're far less likely to get employed anyway, but having clothes be about it shouldn't be something people have to worry about being able to dress for an interview should just exist. I have people say it all the time ‘I just hadn’t thought’ neither had I, and there's a few reasons for it. You don't think about it until it impacts you, which is unfortunately a very human thing to happen. But we do also, we segregate the disabled community. So of course, if you don't see it every day, this is why head office roles are as important. This is why actually universities and schools need to be more accessible so that disabled students are mainstream with everyone else. And therefore they are in those, then able to get into the creative industries or into the jobs they need to to make universal design more common.
Yeah, I would agree. I mean, my brother, as I mentioned, so he's brain damaged, it's quite severe, but you know, he has to pay to work, which I find incredibly mind-blowing. So he pays to go to, I think it's somewhere around here, it's like a charity and folds clothes, but he pays for that, but isn't that just absolutely crazy? So I can relate to a lot of what you're saying. Had I thought about a lot of that, like I'm sure we could have, you know, like these hacks, I think yeah, he would have loved it because he has to wear sports gear. So this is actually fascinating for me.
Yeah, exactly. That's the thing is, I mean, athleisure by its very nature tends to be, you know, leisure wear is relatively adapted, but there are still, you know, there are still needs for those to do better. I mean, one of the models in the February show [...] he says, you know, his bum's always out because he wears trousers and then he's seated and he can't feel it, but he's very aware that his bum’s hanging out and it doesn't make him feel good. And, you know, it's a very simple thing. just to make that back rise a bit longer. We can do so many incredible things with fabrics and patterns. This is a very simple thing that has such a huge impact.
I was reading something about how the adaptive fashion space is considered to grow in the next 10 years and what were the stats, they were incredible [...] it's 400 billion by 2026, I was reading. With that in mind, what would you actually like to see happen? What do you think about the fashion industry in terms of inclusivity?
Well, it isn't. I mean, I've done two shows, but I've done, I think at this point, four events between now and then, you know, other events that like the venues are not accessible. The runways. I mean, I think we're actually rolling back. It's not even just about, you know, like just size diversity seems to be vanishing again, which is seriously frustrating. Um, so, you know, it's not, it's not inclusive. I don't even think they're even really trying anymore. Like, I think they've vaguely got a bit better with ethnicity, that's about as good as it gets. Even ages, we're still using these really young models who are super thin. I'm like, what is the point in trying to sell to people who are not your target consumer? The people buying this don't look like that. It's putting a minority as the desirable when that's not representative of any country, I don't think. So yeah, there's a very, very long way to go. And I think the attitude and the stigma is still a real piece of work. You know, I find non-disabled people in fashion. When I talk about what I do, some of them are nice about it, but there's an inherent sort of reaction, which isn't ideal. And unfortunately, you know, some of, you know, I'm well aware when I put these events on and I invite non-disabled people in, I'm aware that that's still a bit of an attitude from some of them and it could therefore cause problems if they were to do or say anything, but they tend to just, they just either leave or they don't engage anyway. But there’s a very, very long way to go still.
Yeah. I think like the, obviously the rise of like Zebedee talent agency has been, has had a positive influx in that you know, so many different people are coming in.
Yeah. I mean, I'm on the shadow board for a not-for-profit talent agency that does, you know, I've used one of their models in the September show. Though, you know, there are a few and they're getting it. I think it definitely helps. And so, I mean, gosh, Zebedee had been around for quite a while, but you know, it's even then they're still coming up against these barriers and these blocks and you know, they might, you know, people might say, oh yeah, we'll hire someone from your books, but they don't look at the venue of the shoot location potentially or the runway or backstage. You know, so many of the venues are not accessible. Selfridges give their hotel to people [...] to show in, but they couldn't take 25 disabled models and audience members, so I couldn't show them and I can't show them.
Wow, that's interesting – and that's because it's not accessible?
Yeah. Okay. Not to that, not for that many people. I think they know they could get like a couple of wheelchair users in, but even then they're probably they'd have to go in round the back. They wouldn't have the same experience as non-disabled people. And that's very much what I try and do with venues is everyone comes in the same way. There's not a separate entrance for wheelchair users, which is why for the September show, I made everyone come in around the back and I made it look really dingy through the car park. And we had sort of like access signs just dropped all over the floor, scrambled up like ‘out of order’ and then people went through and there was recent news front pages of where, you know, the disabled community has been persecuted in the press. And then leading up to more positive stories about disability and what Unhidden's doing, what places like Zebedee are doing to kind of highlight real accessibility and inclusion is not just being able to get in the building, it's being able to get in the building the same way as everyone else.
Yeah, that's an interesting point and to be able to see and take part in the same way as well, I suppose.
Yeah, and that includes digital inclusion. I always believe in hybrid events for people who are immunocompromised and just not in a place of safety able to leave. We had COVID protocols in place. I know that's what put off a few people from coming because they were like, it's not a thing, but we wouldn't let anyone in unless either they could prove they had a negative test or we had tests on site. And I couldn't enforce a mask rule, but we encouraged it. Not everyone went for it, but I did everything that I could with the budgets and the resources that I had to make it COVID safe. But that's still a thing, people are still sort of saying that that's, things don't need to be hybrid anymore, but not everyone can travel safely. Public transport is not accessible enough. So there are just so many things to consider, but it doesn't mean it can't be done and that it's not worthwhile doing. We've started putting buildings and modes of transport as more important than the people using them. And what is that building for, if not for people to be able to come in and use it?
Yeah, it's interesting what you said about hybrid access, because having had long COVID for the last, what, year, over a year now and then getting asthma from it as well just bonkers and then you are immunocompromised technically aren't you? So then it's how do you navigate everything where you used to attend? So I can relate to it only from that perspective and it's probably very small compared to some other people.
It's still valid. You know, anything that comes about, you know, new mums who've been up all night with a screaming baby, maybe they don't want to get on a bus or a tube and go to an event. Maybe if they could just log on from home, yeah, they can still take part in things. I think that's not just about the disabled community. Most of us could do with the option of if you can't go in person, still witness something online. Yeah, and take part.
So then I was gonna talk to you just about being voted Vogue's Top 25 Powerhouse Woman – that's amazing. How did that feel?
That was a pretty wild day. I think the email came in like 10 to 11. And it just said, hello from Vogue was in the, like the subject title and I was like, it's going to be spam or something. I think I read it about five times and I was like, oh my God. Yeah. It was, it was mind boggling to me really. And then I realised, you know, they were saying it's in print, but we're announcing it today at 2. I was like, hang on, if it's in print, then it's the September issue. Oh my goodness. I had ran out and got a copy and then sort of scrambled through and then found a picture of me in it, you know, it was wild. It was, yeah, an incredible moment. Actually, I put on like, I think I said on my own stories, I've got something absolutely mind boggling to share at 2 o'clock and one of my friends phone said, No, you tell me now. Not waiting until I see that friend. And yeah, then my phone just went into meltdown. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, it's fantastic to be recognised. It's still a long way to go from actually feeling included though. Um, yeah, like Vogue did, uh, British Vogue did their incredible edition in May, um, I, to my knowledge, disability has not been focused on it since other than me being in the Vogue list in September. So I know they've been available in Braille, which is amazing. And they're doing that for the rest of the year, but I haven't suddenly seen loads of articles about disabled people within Vogue since May. So it's still, you know, like it's there, but it's still feeling a bit like a box ticking exercise, which kind of, I know, you know, it's wonderful to be there, but it still feels a bit undermined by am I only included because it makes them look better, which might not be the case at all, but it's something I think every adaptive designer would, or disabled person does have to consider, is it real? So, and it didn't feel real just because it felt amazing but it's still part of the overall feeling in the industry that I still don't feel welcome still. So even with that, I was actually, I gave a talk and I sat down, I had my stick and someone leaned over and said, I think that's where the speakers are meant to sit. I was sat there like, I am one of them. And I think they didn't say that to any of the others. So it's still, it still happens. And the amount of fashion spaces I've been in where I'm like, I think if people knew who, maybe if they knew that I was on that list, maybe they would then speak to me, but it's kind of interesting that they still don't. I don't know, you think that maybe it would make a difference going into spaces, but even being at the BFC welcome breakfast for all the designers, no one spoke to me. I mean, I think everyone generally, they're kind of, they do all know each other, but I was like, what else do I have to do? Because then I was also on the Vogue Business 100 and I knew about that in advance because they did tell me and I think I got more from the industry, more people reaching out from that than the Vogue 25, which was, I don't know, it's just this really interesting dichotomy of am I really included? Vogue's recognising me, but is anyone else? You know, it's, yeah, it's odd.
There's an underlying sort of tension then between the amazing work that you're doing and feeling excluded.
Okay, and then moving on then to your work on Channel 4's unique boutique. I suppose just, yeah, I've been watching it. My little girl who is six is obsessed with shows like this. She watches snippets of Sort Your Life Out with her. And I think this is very much a sort of vibe because she loves anything creative. So yeah, we've been watching it. I suppose it'd just be interesting to hear a little bit about the process, how it came about and then learnings or opportunities from this.
So I'd had this idea, not exactly for the format and the show that got made, but I'd had a similar-ish idea at like five in the morning in February of 2022. And then made a little one-pager, found a heap of people on LinkedIn, sent it out. Didn't really get any responses from anybody, but then got contacted, I think just after International Women's Day in March of 2022 by the executive producer saying, we're putting this show together, we want to have adaptive designers and or experts to, yeah, to sort of have, you know, have other people come in and then redesign their clothes for them or design clothes for them. They weren't really sure. So we had a lot of back and forth. I think they weren't sure of the format of what they were going to do for a while. But yeah, then we got to the point of having a screen test and I already knew that I, that I was in as sort of the lead expert in the area. So on the screen test for the others who were basically auditioning, I had to pretend I didn't know that I had it, which I'm not a very good actress. So they did afterwards, they were aware that I, they kind of said, we did think that you were. Okay, cool. And I said to the producer, like, once you tell everyone, I'm gonna say to them that I did, cause I wanna keep everything transparent. So then yes, then we filmed in October of 2022 and it was an incredible process. It was very long hours. But yeah, it was amazing. I think actually even before then, I'd seen 40 of the potential contributors and then they whittled it down. I had absolutely nothing to do with who got cast where. And then they said, right, these are the ones we're going with. Here's who you've been assigned to do X, Y, Z with. So I was actually on the way to show in Nashville and then New York Fashion Week in September whilst sketching in my hotel room and on the plane on the way out and sort of firing them over and then they chose which design they wanted me to sort of take forward. Then we started sourcing, started fittings. It's a bit of a, you know, it's not all done in one day as we worked that little bit of TV magic. But you know, again, like most of the seamstresses, I think they all came, a lot of them came via The Seam, which is a brilliant company. but they were all either neurodivergent and or disabled as well. You know, I put people forward, one of them was in it for one of the episodes, one of the people as well. So yeah, it was a very rewarding experience. It's very emotional to go, yeah, to sort of hear, I would hear these stories and that's what I had to base the design work on and what they liked and then I'd meet them and then yeah, it was just, it just, I don't know, it kind of stoked the... raging fire that is, you know, no one should be made to feel this awful by a shopping experience. No one should feel left out when you just, you know, when you already feel bad about yourself, you don't want to then go out and feel worse when you go shopping or something. Hugh, who was fantastic, made me realise that I was doing the same thing that he had done in that I wouldn't physically go shopping. I would just generally tend to shop online anyway. But I was, I would calculate how long I could go in, try something on for, then come back out so I could rest or not be in too much pain. So that changed my shopping habits because when you get to a point where you can't do that, he was doing the same until he started using a wheelchair and then just going into shops was a different ball game anyway, because a lot of shops aren't accessible. But yeah, it was all these sort of things, just finding common ground with all the contributors and the amazing cast mates. I mean, I'm in love with all of them. I think they're fantastic.
Looks like you have really good chemistry.
Yeah, we did. We really did like from the get go. After the screen test, you know, I sent an email to the producer like, look, I know I have absolutely no say in who you decide. But I was like, but I want David, Triple and Natalie, please. Thankfully, that's who they went with as well. But yeah, they were, and they are incredible human beings. And we all went on that journey together. I think it was difficult. There's a lot of you know, like filming is a very stressful process. We were all completely new to it. So the experience was very up and down, but overall, like it was a blast and you do get into a routine of it. And yeah, doing the big reveals at the end was always fun. And it's all those little moments behind the scenes, you know, it was great.
Hope there is going to be a new series.
Yeah.I'd love there to be another one. I mean, I think the thing I would want to do though is have less people per episode and more episode because I think there's so much, so many of their stories and we tried really hard, we didn't want it to be inspiration porn, we didn't want it to be all doom and gloom, but it did mean we had to kind of speed through these stories. And I think people relate more to the story. So clothes are important, yes, but I think it's really important to share the reasons why these stories are important and why clothes and fashion is still such a force for good.
So you can co chair our representation and inclusion committee and I wonder just as a final question, whether you had any policy ideas or, I suppose any overarching or underpinning policy suggestions that we might be able to unpick a little bit or, that we could round things up with – Your top three policy asks basically.
I mean the biggest one is probably the boldest one and that is to mandate that one in five models on a runway have a disability visible or otherwise. I know there's a lot of people that sort of say, you can't ask everyone to declare. So don't use those ones, but there are plenty of us that are prepared to declare. So hire them because I think if we don't mandate it, I don't believe it will happen, frankly. We're at such a point now, we're growing back on size and everything else. I don't think unless we mandate it, it's gonna happen.
Then I think it needs to be a matter of policy about venues. They need to be accessible and you should not be allowed to put an event on unless you at least are transparent about what the accessibility is. No one's expecting perfection. We're not expecting people to suddenly rebuild venues, but I think at least to alert people and let them know and say like, you know, yes, there's steps or there is a second exit, but you can use it just to be more transparent, I think.
And then I suppose the other policy is, I don't know how you could turn it into policy, but anyone that puts content out, if it's not accessible, it gets banned or revoked, or you've got to resubmit it, you know, alt text. It's really easy and quite fun to do video captions. Trying to have BSL interpreters, you know, available at events. I think just anything that invites the community and it lets them know that they're welcome. And that means using the right language and saying we're wheelchair accessible, but actually making sure that you are. Because you might have places say, oh, we're wheelchair accessible, but we've got to step and the loo’s are out of order. That's ‘get in the bin’ territory.
It's also part of the Equality Act of 2010 – if you're, you know, a restaurant or a bar or an event space, like you are actually legally required to be accessible and it's amazing how many places aren’t. So I think a stronger enforcing policy on that.
Yeah, I think they're all really reasonable and I think particularly if you were to, the Equality Act of 2010, if places are more often than not, not sort of enforcing any of that, then that's a real issue for people, isn't it?
Yeah. I was trying to find a sort of after party venue for the show that was accessible and open after 10 o'clock. And just, I think we found one and it was a hotel lobby and it was in Shoreditch in the end. We couldn't, it didn't exist and the only ones that did were all closed. But, you know, I phoned one place and it was two weeks prior and they were like, Oh, well, you know, we haven't got a ramp, where you can buy them. And they're really not expensive. And they're like, and the disabled loo is out of order. I'm like, and it's going to remain out of order for two weeks? That doesn't say to me that you're gonna fix it. Like you wouldn't expect, non-disabled people, if they were going out to restaurants and being told, oh, you can spend money here, but you can't go to the toilet, you wouldn't go. And it's unreasonable that we're expected to just go, oh, okay, well, I'll still eat here though. You know. Yeah, it's totally unreasonable. I think brands that want to get into this space now, the best way, the meaningful way, and the fastest way to do it is to collaborate with other adaptive designers. I'm not saying they all have to collaborate with me, but that would be wonderful. But there's more, there's heaps of us.
But I think that's, so many people are like, oh, it's gonna take a lot of time. We don't know anything about it. We need to retrain our designers. I'm like, yeah, you can do all of that. And you can be another two, three, four years late to the party. Or you can work with consultants and designers who already know what they're doing, who have already done the work and therefore more meaningfully bring it to the community. I don't necessarily believe the luxury sector needs to worry as much about the clothes themselves because I think people that can afford that kind of clothing already have tailors if they have a disability, it's not quite the same need. And that's where the representation comes in instead, I think for them. But with, yeah, with... high street fashion brands or mid range, that's where they need to start looking at the clothes as well as the representation.
Yeah. And then that's talking again then there are the barriers to people actually accessing that kind of product.
Yeah. Especially, you know, we're 50% more likely to live in poverty and we're in a cost of living crisis anyway. People are having to choose between machines that keep them alive and breathing and heat and food. So they're really not in a place to then go and buy something and then pay even more money to get it adapted. It's just not, you know, so it's just at a time where things are difficult and being able to dress even in just one nice thing that you absolutely love can make such a difference to a person’s day.
This transcript has been adapted from the original podcast interview between Meg and Victoria.
MEG PIRIE in conversation with #19 VICTORIA JENKINS